I think it is legitimate to wonder how Obama could have attended this nutcases church–and given him tens of thousands of dollars–for two decades.

What I wonder is if Wright is now actively trying to sink Obama or not.

Let’s see, I’m looking all through Obama’s position papers and I don’t see one point about doing everything that his preacher told him to do if he’s elected President. This story has been promoted by Hillary and the Republicans. I think Rev. Wright ought to be given some respect. He’s fighting back against an unfair mob that, frankly, reminds me of the way we whites used to treat black people in the days when lynching was common. I’m saddened by the horde mentality taking place. Rev. Wright is not running for President.

Please. Obama’s “position papers” are not the only element of evidence to consider about Obama. If McCain had a similar, long term pastoral relationship with a nutcase on the Christian right it would certainly be an issue for you and others.

As far as Wright being given respect–I give no respect to a guy who thinks AIDS was created by the government to kill black people and that the US is a terrorist nation.

Re: 3. The REAL Blue

Sure there is some relevance…but in this case it has been blown way, way out of proportion. To put it another way, I don’t believe that Rev. Wright is as relevant to the story of the Presidential race as Obama’s opponents, including Hillary as she does the Republicans dirty work, are successfully making it to be in the media.

Linking to Jonah Goldberg? Please…. Next, why not link to Rush Limbaugh on the flag pin “issue”?

Despite what Jonah “liberal fascism” Goldberg wrote, I heard the interview with Bill Moyers was excellent and want to see if it is being replayed somewhere..

Re: 3. The REAL Blue

Oh, and I assume McCain has relationships with ultra-conservative Christians…or at least he does now. And I assume Obama will be attacked for being black, in so many subtle and not so subtle ways. I just never assumed it would come at the hands of the Clintons. Let’s just say I’m with James Clyburn on this one.

Re: 5.The Other Guy

Why wouldn’t it come at the hand of the Clintons? They have proven time and time again to go to any measure to achieve their aspirations. Ethics be damned.

I’ll agree with you that the attention that the media is giving this whole thing is overblown although I have to say that if my pastor were to suggest that AIDS were engineered by the US government I would have started looking for a new congregation in disgust pretty quickly. However to suggest that somehow its being engineered by the Hillary campaign is a little bit of a reach. This is the type of story the media goes wild for, all of the candidates have been on the wrong end of it before. If Obama is to be successfull as a candidate he needs to figure out how to deflect it because the media is not going to stop being that way as long as we keep watching and reading.

Re: 2. The Other Guy

Rev. Wright is not being lynched. And he is doing a disservice to the African-American church communities.

As for this being orchestrated by the Clintons, they didn’t create Wright. And to her credit, Hillary has not responded to this latest controversy. Neither has McCain.

As a white person, I’m uncomfortable with the way Hillary Clinton’s campaign, including her husband and her staff and her, have fed this story, and others, when it obviously has the potential to be racially divisive. I have not studied Rev. Wright’s overall body of work, and withhold judgment. We have a horrendous record as a nation regarding the treatment of many non-white groups so I prefer to be cautious. I wish we could also be more careful than to fall into the Nixon southern strategy one more time in this instance. Again, I’m with Jim Clyburn on this subject.

Re: 8. Jimbo

I don’t know how passionate Rev. Wright was on any particular subject because I wasn’t there. I can’t say I would quit a church based on something that was said when I wasn’t there. And I certainly can’t count on the media to give me an accurate characterization of what might have really happened. That’s what I’m talking about. We don’t really know. Passionate preaching and frequent use of metaphor, mixed with real anger over centuries of injustice might make me say some things that could easily be made into a whole lot more than they are. We have a horrendous record as a nation on the way we’ve treated non-whites.

BOOM! Easley to endorse Hillary!

Thank you, Rev. Wright!

PL:

You’ve clearly been hanging out w/ Burka too much.

Re: 9. Pink Lady
Shouldn’t you be focusing on McCain’s psycho pastor? Or are you trying to get him elected by continuing to talk about Wright?

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=167006

The Moyers thing was really good, but it seems like the good rev. has touched the not-too-well-hidden vein of institutional racism in the us of a. Some wackadoodle over at the NYTimes has him wriggling “out from under sound bites”, leaving me to suppose that purveyors of manly love like Robertson, Hagee and the various Bob Jones stride across the landscape like god approved colossi. Read Tristero over at Digby’s place. Obama needs to make a Kennedy like speech to maybe touch the minds !!!! and hearts of our high schooler blue collars.

Re: 8. Jimbo

For once, I agree with some of what you say. It is overblown. The media is loco. Hillary is not the leader of the mob, just another member. Obama does need to figure out how to deal with this. Points well made.

The media has NOTHING to report on given the duration of this miserable primary and the similarities of the two candidates. But still, they need to sell their cars and colas and pharmaceuticals. Every day. Every hour. Every 5 to 7 minutes, they need to have something that will draw viewers so that there numbers will be better than the next channel or else they are all out of a job and their kids lose their healthcare. Serious shit. Follow the money.

I thought that this was a country where we have the freedom to speak our mind. I thought that this was a country that welcomed diverse views instead of monoculture groupthink. I think I am naive.

Is Wright controversial? Absolutely. Is he mistaken on some things. Perhaps. Does he speak an inconvenient truth on many historical race issues? Yes. Will he be punished for this? Most definitely. Will it be used against Obama? Of course.

Does this have a direct bearing on Obama’s qualifications to make sound decisions and provide excellent leadership on the wars, economy, and environment? No. In fact, one could argue that this makes him better situated to understand the issues of black Americans and the issues of minorities in general.

Hillary found herself at a fork in the road. The high road called for her to renounce the Wright stuff as irrelevant and in bad faith. It called for her to take those 15 minutes and talk about something positive for the country. She chose the low road. It makes me sad.

Re: 3. The REAL Blue

Do you have any idea how many people in this country think that AIDS and crack, etc., were a government conspiracy against African Americans? That’s not crackpot, crazy or even a fringe view. That’s pretty widely suspected in many communities.

And if you want to disagree that the US has bombed and terrorized other countries, go ahead. The facts are pretty clear on that.

I love how the Clintonistas are now banging this anti-American drum.

I went to church, by the way, every Sunday for two decades or longer. I can’t remember shit about what my preacher said.

So you want to defend the allegation? That’s…not a good strategy…for trying to help Obama among the vast majority of non-crazy people in this country.

Re: 17. The REAL Blue

Of course it’s indefensible. However, in the 1930s our government conducted a clinical study on syphilis, telling 400 illiterate black men that they were receiving treatment for “bad blood.” The Tuskegee scientists withheld penicillin from participants so they could study how the disease spreads and kills.

Is it any wonder that many African Americans (especially those from older generations) are a little less willing to give our government the benefit of the doubt? That doesn’t mean people who believe this are crazy. Paranoid perhaps, but not crazy. And certainly not out of the realm of the collective imagination for an entire culture that until recently has been screwed by the establishment.

Re: 17. The REAL Blue

First off, in a manner of speaking, yes. I want to defend a person’s right to say something that’s distasteful to the mainstream without being called “crazy.”
Second, I want to defend the idea that possibly the U.S. government is a little more nefarious than starry-eyed pro-USA! All the Way! types might want to believe it is.

I don’t actually think that the government put AIDS on the black community, no. But I also wouldn’t lay money on my position. I think it’s dangerous to assume blindly and automatically that just because it’s a little far-fetched for YOUR sensibilities, that must mean it couldn’t have happened.

And what I was actually getting at was this tone in your comment (yes, I can hear your tone of voice, I’m THAT good…) that suggested he deserved no respect just because of an opinion that you seem to think is WAY OUT THERE.

What I’m telling you is that it’s a very prevalent suspicion, not just one held by crackpots, and if anyone has damn good reason for suspecting the U.S. government of shit like this, it’s black people.

As for “strategy,” thanks so much for that campaign advice from the other side of the battle, really, I know you have my candidate’s best interests in mind.

But a) I’m not going to change your mind anyway, and b) I’m not being paid. I’m just being honest.

Re: 18. Outsider

And… yeah. What he said.

One good thing about this Rev. Wright meshugas is that is has helped me to turn off the talking heads on cable television. What the fu*ck was I doing watching Joe Scarbrough, Pat Buchanan for, for that matter, Chris Matthews in the first place? What a waste of brain time.

REAL Blue. Love you. Hillary is helping to alienate less-educated white folks against our nominee in some ill-fated attempt to miraculously strip him of the nomination by playing the race card.

Did you hear what Kinky Friedman said in Houston in 1985?

Before we start saying that we totally get why Rev. Wright would continue to play on fears of the black community, maybe we should first condemn him for doing that. I think he’s a despicable opportunist who reminds me a little too much of Al Sharpton.

And let’s not forget that homosexual men in the U.S. were the first ones affected by HIV/AIDS. I don’t hear them saying it’s a government conspiracy but maybe some of you have greater insight on that, given you have all the answers.

Re: 22. The Other Guy

Yes, we all know that we are far superior to less-educated folks who inherently thrive on racism. Too bad they didn’t go to college and become enlightened.

What’s the hardest thing about telling your parents that you have AIDS? Convincing them that you’re Jamaican.

There’s a ton of misinformation about AIDS out there.

Re: 25. Pink Lady

Ouch. You’re talking about my family. Well, so was I. Coming from a long line of under-educated south Texas rednecks, it’s painfully obvious what the strategy is.

Re: 9. Pink Lady

“And to her credit, Hillary has not responded to this latest controversy. Neither has McCain.”

you stand corrected about McCain: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/28/obamas-pastor-jeremiah-wr_n_98922.html

oh and here’s what you should be blogging about: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ferentz-lafargue/john-mccains-wright-probl_b_99134.html

PL, pay a visit to Jon Swartz and take a peek at the comments.

Re: 26. The Other Guy

I thought it was explaining that I’M not Jamaican…but my boyfriend is.

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/unc-m-baskbl-body.html
Click on the photo gallery.

Once people get a load of this, the whole Wright thing will blow over. “Barack Obama is buddies with Roy Williams, Tyler Hansbrough and Sam Perkins?! Sign us up!” they’ll say.

Re: 24. Pink Lady

Given we have all the answers? Wow. That was a little unnecessary. Someone needs a hug. Where’s the love, PL?

I’ve never said I totally get why he’s “continuing” to play on their fears, nor have I said what he’s doing is right. I actually think he’s being an opportunist, too - although HE didn’t drag himself into this, Obama’s criticis did. But now I think he should have a seat, personally, and get out of the picture.

But they *are* fears he’s “playing on” and therefore it makes him, uhm, not the only out there who thinks the way he does. Not by a long shot.

Hey look. I do have all the answers.

Re: 20. Lurkette

I agree.

I don’t mean to be Mr. Conspiracy Theorist here, and I don’t believe that the U.S. Gov’t created or spread the HIV virus, but from Wright’s point of view, this is the same government that allowed medical experiments on blacks, allowing them to die from syphilis, without telling them what disease they had or trying to cure it.

I think we have to be far enough beyond the point of giving the U.S. government of 20-30 years ago the benefit of the doubt; at least not so much so that we call a guy “crazy” when he suggests that out government might have done something terrible.

Re: 24. Pink Lady

despicable opportunist? Come on. He’s a hothead ex-marine old-school black man who has seen more of the underbelly of America than probably any of us on this blog.

Newsflash! Man has strong opinions about the actions of our government concerning race and international policy! Stop the presses and impugn the integrity of a strong, smart, honest candidate. Hogwash. Is that the best you Clinton supporters have? Really?

I understand your concern that The REAL Reds will use it in the general. They will use anything and everything. Do you think you have heard the last of Monica, the travel office, Whitewater, snipers? Hillary is doing a disservice to the democratic party by facilitating this lynching for dubious associates. She could neutralize the whole thing by telling the truth: it is a red herring and irrelevant. Move on people.

Are you proud of Hillary for making this a bigger issue?

Re: 22. The Other Guy

I guess I missed the details of how the Clinton camp is orchestrating the promotion of the Wright story. At about the same time I must have missed the details of their shadowy plan to “play the race card” beyond a half-witted comment by WJC at a campaign event several months ago.

Might I suggest that one way to “play the race card” is to continually suggest that your opponent is using the race card against you?

Re: 30. The Best Ever Death Metal Band in Denton

THAT changes EVERYTHING.

Re: 17 and 20 and 31. Lurkette

What Lurkette said.

Mexican crabs.

Re: 33. West Texas Hillbilly

How is Hillary making this a bigger issue?
How could Hillary neutralize this by talking about it? Is she somehow in control of the press? If so someone should tell her campaign because they are obviously not taking advantage of it to promote her.

In “Bigger and Blacker,” Chris Rock had this to say: “The most racist people are old black men! He went through real racism back then. He didn’t go through that “I-can’t-get-a-cab” thing. Back then, he WAS the cab! A white man jump on his back, “Main Street!”

I’m a white boy, but I have seen enough to know that African-Americans, amongst themselves, say things they’d never say when whites are around (hint: it ain’t the Cosby show). And I presume everyone here knows the reverse is true.

I don’t much like what the good reverend has to say, but I have an idea where it comes from. If you look past the facts of what he says about Iraq and AIDS and focus on the sentiment, there’s a lot of hurt and despair — laid bare.

In any event, it’s not good for Obama, and it no doubt helps the servants of the status quo — Hillary and McCain.

But maybe, over the long haul, it’ll be good for whites to hear an echo of the hatred spewed at blacks. Truth ain’t always beauty; sometimes it’s purty damned ugly.

Damn, man. You guys can say whatever you want and then pile on when I respond. I’ve got a thick skin, but this is just getting annoying.

Update: Obama just completely disowned Wright on CNN, especially his remarks that the government is responsible for AIDS in the black community.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/29/obama-says-hes-outraged-with-pastors-comments/#more-6772

Sheesh. That’s all for today.

Bus, meet Rev. Wright. Rev. Wright, meet Obama’s bus.

Obamaphiles–you have been issued new talking points:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/29/135626/450/730/505746

This will disappoint you, but none of this changes anything I’ve said or my opinion at all. See, I’m not the automaton you might think simply bec I support Obama. I stand firm in my belief that Wright is not speaking for the fringe, but for a large chunk of the population in his suspicions. Period. That opinion does not and never had anything to do with whether Obama agrees with him or not. It’s so irrelevant.

PL, you know I love ya. But come on. Nobody’s “piling on” you – why ya gotta make this personal? You get a whole post to express your opinion. We’re just using the comments to disagree – and mostly with each other.

Quit getting so emotional. You’re acting like a girl.

/Ducks and runs
//You love me!

Re: 41. Pink Lady

We’ve got thick skins too, which is why we come here. Oh, and for the orphan babies too.

I don’t think the clintonians are fueling this story. I think Wright’s doing most of it on his own.

And maybe it is overblown. And maybe there are countless others who think the Gov is responsible for social ills against blacks, etc. That’s not the point.

Just as HRC is held to the fire for ‘character’ issues, Obama should be as well. How many people have said they wouldn’t vote for her because she stayed with Bill? Too many to count.

The Wright story should be irrelevant in and of itself. But as he likes to say, you have to look at the full context. And that includes Obama worshipping at the foot of someone whose words are pretty bile — or at least bigoted – for nearly 20 years.

Wright suggested Obama was guilty of political maneuvering. He is after all waiting until now — now that $#it is hitting the fan - to try to distance himself. Maybe Wright is right.

Again, it all goes back to character and judgment. And we owe it to ourselves to hold B.O. to the same fire as we do any other candidate.

Re: 41. Pink Lady

Love ya PL. You think I come here for the free food?

Re. 3. Jimbo

How about “Wright would not have been my pastor,” for starters. To deny that she has not used this to her advantage is disingenuous.

Re. 45. MajorMajor

To conflate BHO’s preacher with HRC’s husband (and co-campaigner and our former president) is a stretch. Do much yoga? HRC’s character issues are hers. Wright’s are his, not BHO’s. You seem confused. I associate with a known wodka-soaked orphan-eater, so I’m obviously deviant.

Sorry for the double-negative. Stepping away from the keyboard!

Re: 45. MajorMajor

I don’t know Major. Bill Clinton’s womanizing made news when he war running for Prez, but not to this extent. Bush’s partyboy ways (which lasted well into his thirties) made news, but not to this extent. No one has revisited the Keating Five. These are all major character/judgment flaws that warrant as much (if not more) scrutiny than Obama “worshiping at the feet” of Wright.

For what its worth, there are many people who don’t believe what Wright said was bigoted. Overly dramatic maybe, over-the-top, certainly. But his larger point about reaping what we sow in foreign policy is fair (a bitter pill, but accurate).

GOP candidates have wrapped themselves around guys like Pat Robertson and John Hagee for years without facing anything anywhere near this type of fallout. It’s a complete double-standard.

This isn’t about Obama’s character and judgment. It’s about using Wright as a proxy for the angry black man and hanging it around Obama’s neck. It shows just how close to the surface racism is that a learned, respected pastor preaching fire and brimstone can destroy the first African American who is a viable candidate for the presidency.

Re: 47. West Texas Hillbilly

Yeah.

I still go with Congressman Clyburn on this overall subject. On Wright specifically, the Clintons had a chance to be helpful on the issue and instead played opportunistic politics. Too bad.

Wait a second, why would you expect your opponent for the presidential nomination “to be helpful” if by “helpful” you don’t mean “push you off the cliff”?

Re: 46. West Texas Hillbilly

I disagree. Of course their not Entirely the same. But anyway you slice it, it’s still baggage that each candidate has to deal with - like it or agree with it or not. Just saying.

Re: 51. The REAL Blue

I’m talking about the issue of racism. When the Clintons sound like Sean Hannity, that’s a bummer, man. Joe Scarbrough and Pat Buchanon have been praising Hillary. Rush is working to get her votes. The right wingers would have done plenty with this issue without the Clintons help. Just my point of view.

Re: 41. Pink Lady

I hope he called grandma first to tell her she was now eligible for disownment.

Re: 48. Outsider

Beautifully written.

Re: 51. The REAL Blue

One is not supposed to push one’s apparent party nominee off the cliff in such a way that the other party’s candidate need do no work in the fall, AND you appear to be favoring the other party’s candidate.

Also, most of the issues for which Wright is being criticized are core liberal issues. If you remove the “God damn America” part I mean. The treatment of native Americans, the internment of the Japenese, the oppression of blacks, and our often wayward foreign policy.

And though I haven’t listened to Wright’s latest, I don’t believe he said the U.S “invented” aids to destroy the black community, but instead that it was “introduced” into the black community. Just as whacko, perhaps. But not if you remember the Tuskegee scientific experiments, and many blacks do. Unfortunately, it is not remembered much outside the black community, but it happened exactly as Outsider explained in what is now comment 19 (but that number could change-damn spam filter.) Horrifying. It really is not much of a stretch to consider possible the intentional introduction of another deadly virus.

Lest we forget, PL stated at the outset that essentially what Wright was saying was not representative of Obama’s views.
Yes, precisely.

I can’t wait to have the McCain-Hagee/Obama-Wright face-off. Mr. McCain’s Hagee, who McCain has embraced, not denounced, should be front and center press this fall.
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2008/02/27/PH2008022702958.jpg

I have had just about enough of the casual connection of an unethical medical study with the calculated act of genocide that “introducing” or “inventing” AIDS would involve.

Re: 58. The REAL Blue

It’s not casual. But it is disturbing isn’t it? No fun to talk about at all.

Re: 23. JohnCornyn’sBoxTurtle

Niiice.

How Hillary lost the black vote…

http://thedailyvoice.com/voice/2008/04/how-bob-johnson-helped-hillary-000483.php

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/opinion/29herbert.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

That, of course, is the Obama spin.

The racist is not the person pointing out that LBJ was needed for the Civil Rights Act to get passed.

Re: 48. Outsider

Seriously!? You think this has been blown up more than Clinton’s womanizing during his Presidency. With all due respect were you in this country during his Presidency?

The only reason the media have gone back to it again now is because Reverend Wright decided to make some more public appearances. If he’d quietly gone away we wouldn’t be hearing about it this week at all.

Re: 58. The REAL Blue

I understand your frustration, and it’s completely valid…because Wright’s comments about AIDS are ugly and outrageous to most of us.

However…

Jerry Falwell: AIDS is not just God’s punishment for homosexuals; it is God’s punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.

Charles Stanley: God created the AIDS epidemic to indicate his displeasure over America’s acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle.

Hagee: God caused Hurricane Katrina to wipe out New Orleans because it had a gay pride parade the week before and was filled with sexual sin.

What’s worse, for a pastor to suggest that God did it or that the US Government did it? At least with Wright there’s actually a recent precedent in Tuskegee. With God you may have to go back a ways for pestilence.

No one has asked George Bush or John McCain to denounce these men and their outrageous statements. What’s the difference between Wright and the rest of them? One is black and his rhetorical approach is foreign and off-putting to white America (and he happens to have been the spiritual adviser to a black candidate). The others are white. What they say is ok, what Wright says is not. These other dudes spew hatred that is far more dangerous with sweeping public and foreign policy implications and get away with it (e.g. Hagee’s argument that a confrontation with Iran is a precondition for Armageddon).

The difference is that in a representative democracy we are our government. We are not God. A pastor making a repugnant linkage between God and AIDS or Katrina and NOLA is not causing the event to occur. The government deliberately infecting blacks with AIDS would be causing a terrible harm–a genocide by any rational meaning of the term.

So, ethicially, the claims are not remotely comparable.

Re: 64. Jimbo

Maybe I wasn’t clear.

I wasn’t talking about Clinton’s presidency. I was talking about the vetting process to become President. The Gennifer Flowers controversy came up during Clinton’s 1992 campaign. And it was nothing compared to the Wright scandal.

Clinton’s past womanizing spoke volumes about the man’s character and judgment but the American public ignored it…and we all know what happened next. Obama’s affiliation with Wright can’t come anywhere near to indicting his character and judgment they way Clinton’s should have. Likewise we probably all agree that it would’ve been better to pay a little more attention to Bush’s character and judgment issues as well.

Re: 66. The REAL Blue

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. A pastor putting forth his opinion that our government deliberately practices genocide doesn’t cause it to occur either - any more than some other pastor suggesting that God practices genocide. The only comparison is that these guys are all alleging that something occurred that didn’t.

Either way, I’m completely confused now and concede the point.

By not openly denouncing the story as a non-story, that should have nothing to do with the race for Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton is part of the problem. Had she chosen to do that, we’d be talking about something else. We are all smart enough to know that she was ok with this story getting legs and that her folks are damn good about getting the story out there without being directly implicated. It’s what I loved about them during their appearance on the national scene in 92.

I just personally think that Jim Clyburn, the highest ranking African American in Congress, is right on this subject.

Re: 35. Jimbo

Might I suggest that one way to “play the gender card” is to continually suggest that your opponent and the media are using the gender card against you?

There, fixed it for you.

Re: 69. The Other Guy

No. No we wouldn’t.

Y’all… if Sen. Clinton could control the media then Sen. Obama never would’ve gotten off the starting line.

Y’all are a little too eager to see demons everywhere.

Re: 71. mcblogger

OMG, are you one of Britney Spears personalities, Y’all?

Re: 71. mcblogger

Fair point. That’s why I didn’t say control of the media, rather their ability to influence it. And Obama is not where he is because of the media, other than social media. He out organized her, pure and simple. She could have very much influenced the story by taking a more principled stand.

I’m with Congressman Clyburn on this one.

Clyburn on Rose, just now re Wright:

“I do not find one single word or phrase I disagree with.”

Appalling.

Oops, I misheard…that should be *agree* with.

So he is going after Wright….

OBAMA CAN’T WIN IN NOVEMBER

Us Democrats are doing the Lemming thing. Again. Following Obama right off a cliff in November.

The truth is he has never been properly vetted politically to run for President. He ran against Alan Keyes, who wasn’t even from IL, after his prospective tough Senate opponent was revealed in divorce papers to have been a sex pervert (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

The truth is Obama got bored in the Senate, after accomplishing nothing of note, and let his ambition get the better of him. If Democrats lose this year, which should rightfully be our year, it’s Obama’s fault.

The truth is he’s not ready for prime time. He can’t take criticism, he’s never been properly vetted or tested, and too much is riding on this election to throw ourselves off the cliff because of his ambition. Our future is too important.

The truth is Obama can’t win. He fares poorly in the battleground states, while Hillary might run the table. As you can see at realclearpolitics.com, in head to head with McCain, Hilary is ahead in PA and OH and essentially tied in FL. Obama is dead in the water in FL, behind in OH, and tied in PA. None of the other states will really matter if they go according to recent form.

Hillary has shot at 300 electoral votes. If she wins FL, it’s all over for McCain. If Obama can’t even hold PA, there’s no way for him to win.

General Election McCain-Obama McCain-Clinton
National Obama +1.5 Clinton +3.5
Pennsylvania Tie Clinton +5.2
Ohio McCain +2.6 Clinton +5.0
Florida McCain +11.7 McCain +0.3

Re: 74. The REAL Blue

Somehow I don’t think you’ve given the whole context…which remains the problem.

Republicans are supposed to go after black preachers and demonize them for their own political gain, not us. Republicans shouldn’t do it either, but it seems worse when Democrats do it.

Ok, I’m being extremely idealistic here. Obama did what he had to do. Wright forced his hand by fighting back in public and being totally non-political about it. It’s sad. And I encourage my friends on the left to see this as a sad thing. I know you do.

Re: 75. exvirginiadude

So Obama should bow out now because polls show him 12 points behind McCain in Fla and Clinton 5 points better vs. McCain in OH?

In April? Seriously.

I mean no disrespect but you need to bring something more to the table than that. In all likelihood either Hillary or Obama start the race with 252 delegates in the bag (Kerry’s total in 2004). It’s a horse race for the next 18 and they can come from a variety of places.

Step away for a day and miss all the fun. Damn. Nice discussion, yall. Buy yourselves a drink, you deserve it.

PL, thanks for the playground. You need work on getting the students to line up better when the bell rings….heh.

Its one thing for Wright to jump the shark, but its not a good idea to dive in while bleeding.

Does anyone else find it ironic that it is the black candidate and his pastor who are being accused of elitism and bigotry?

/ I have two words for all of you, JOHN HAGEE

// do people realize that the U.S. took part in compulsory sterilization programs the first half of the 20th century?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#United_States

http://www.commondreams.org/views/072100-106.htm

Re: 69. The Other Guy

I haven’t seen Obama rushing to denounce every non-story that has arisen about Hillary either. That is not the job of an opponent. At the end of the day the only reason the media are still talking about this this week is that Reverend Wright just cannot resist rising to the bait. If he had quietly slipped into obscurity this would all have gone away by now.

I think it is, frankly, absurd to expect Hillary to give Obama a pass on this during the primary. I mean, it is not like he’ll get a pass in the general election.

And as far as “demonizing” black preachers go, hateful bigots like Wright SHOULD be demonized. The conspiracy-mongering so prevalent in the black community is aided and abetted by the unwilling of the sane to call out these demogogues on thier BS.

Finally, the Wright = Hagee meme ain’t gonna fly.

Re: 80. Jimbo

You’re right Jimbo. And I don’t expect Hillary to help out Obama every chance she gets. The specific matter I’m addressing is racism, which is alive and well. My naive hope is that all Democrats could call it off limits. You’re absolutely right that Wright reignited the story, but you have to admit that less than honorable folks went out and created the story.

Today, I agree with Charlie Rangel of Harlem. A staunch Hillary supporter, he said it was absolutely wrong to go after Wright, a preacher. I just wish Hillary, and Bill, had cried foul on the story in the beginning. I wish she hadn’t of said,”not that I now of” when asked if Obama was Muslim. You get my point.

But Treehugger is right, we’re on the same side on 99.9 percent of the issues, we just have two candidates right now. I say let’s all have a drink today and love one another. You’re great to debate with, Jimbo.

Re: 81. The REAL Blue

Please. Time to go get that drink. It’s noon somewhere.

Re: 81. The REAL Blue

Since you already know everything about Rev Wright and Sen Obama’s relationship with him you probably won’t be interested in this, but others might:
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2008/04/29/why-d-obama-join-trinity-in-the-first-place.aspx?CommentPosted=true

Re: 85. The Best Ever Death Metal Band in Denton

Nice. Even Newt Gingrich, on Jon Stewart last night, deferred by saying he, Wright, was a very complex man. To which Stewart replied, wouldn’t it be nice if we could learn to be more understanding of all our complexities? (paraphrasing)

Whew! Look at these comments. Way to start a conversation, PL. Now where’s that *other* site I was supposed to visit?

Re: 82. The REAL Blue
Are you Black? Have you spent a great deal of time in the Black Community?

Eugenics was a popular concept at the beginning of the last century, on both sides of the aisle. And forced sterilization continued in this country up until the early 70’s.

The US government wouldn’t use genocide? Maybe you need to visit an Indian Reservation, and speak to the elders.

Re: 78. Outsider

Outsider, I’m not saying Obama should bow out, his ambition won’t allow that. But the people deciding who our nominee is (i.e.superdelegates) ought to make electability the top consideration and Clinton is much better positioned to win in November. Don’t assume 252 electoral votes as a starting point for either candidate. Obama has big problems in Michigan since he killed efforts for a revote. He has problems in NH, MN and some other states. He may compete better in CO and NV than Clinton, but she has a chance in AR and WV where he doesn’t. Neither candidate has a chance in VA, despite all the claims made on this site. I think the tale will again be told in the 3 key battleground states of PA, OH and FL. There is simply no doubt Clinton fares better in all 3 states. To win, you will probably need 2 of the 3. Is there any doubt that Clinton has a much better chance of doing this than Obama? Obama can’t even compete in FL and Hillary is much stronger against McCain in OH and PA.

Let’s face it, the bloom is off Obama’s rose. He’s past his peak in popularity and potential electability. And this before the Republican war machine even begins the inevitable swiftboatingwilliehortonmaxclelandosama?obamamuslim?christian attacks.

Let’s not shoot ourselves in the head again by following Obama off the cliff in November.

Can we go back to sex slavery now?

Re: 89. exvirginiadude

The R attack machine will do the same and worse with Clinton. (Obama has not, to his credit.) They have not forgotten Vince Foster and Whitewater and they will use it to the hilt. What about her representation of radical anti-war protesters? http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/tom-hayden-look.html
Haven’t heard much about that, have you? That’s because Obama hasn’t used it, but the R’s will. She has the highest negatives of any candidate. Just say “Clinton” and the R base will be out in force.

Not so with Obama. Obama brings new voters to the table. He can handle the attacks in the media, mainly because the best they have is Wright. Pastor Disaster? (Thanks, Kinky, for the turn of phrase.) Have you met McCain’s John Hagee? Clinton appeals only to the party faithful and cannot overcome her negatives in the general. Obama brings legitimate new voters into the system that will follow him with passion and energy. He can and will out-organize McCain. And Hillary will help to unite the party behind him.

Let’s not ensure defeat in November by nominating Clinton.

Re: 88. Had a Dream

Classy. Very classy.

Re: 92. The REAL Blue

I think you have a misguided view of our history, of how our government has treated its own citizens. Others have brought up various examples, but try to look at it through the eyes of a entire race that was once considered to be 3/5 of a person, or the entire indigenous population that we abused, or (more recently) the inhabitants of Pacific atolls that we tested nuclear warheads on. Again, I’m not saying that I beleive that our government introduced AIDS to the African American community, but it is historically accurate that our government has done some amazingly evil things (by comission and omission) and to disregard this history makes it much easier for it to happen again.

Re: 93. slickshusez

Where the hell have you been?

Re: 93. slickshusez

Not a believer myself either, of course. But all this got me thinking about the racial divide in this country. As a point of reference and just FYI, here’s a link to a poll taken in 1999 which suggests that 27% of adult blacks believed AIDS was a government conspiracy to kill and wipe out black people. And get this–the numbers skew upward with college educated black men. Think maybe there’s a gulf between (sub)cultural worldviews in our country? Makes me ask myself if I’ve done anything today to help bridge it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10329334?dopt=Abstract

Re: 72. Groaning

Nah, I’m from Texas. We write as we talk. Sorry, next time I’ll try writing ‘you guys’.

/dipshit

Re: 96. mcblogger

A W E S O M E

Re: 91. Don’t Mess w/ Pink

What she said.

Re: 82. The REAL Blue

Ain’t gonna fly???? Dream on. It’s flown.

Re: 76. exvirginiadude

The truth is …. ? Gosh, thanks for the enlightment. Where would we be without Your Truth?

/Rolling my eyes on that one.

Re: 91. Don’t Mess w/ Pink

You are so full of…..hackneyed conventional wisdom. First, Whitewater and Vince Foster are completely yesterday’s news. They may motivate some of the right wing fringe, but they’ll be no more relevant to the general election than trying to resurrect the Charles Keating issue with McCain.

And the notion that the youth vote will make some big difference in the election is fallacious. Younger voters are not reliable voters. Obama is kind of a fad right now, but come November they’ll be like “Dude it’s cold outside and I have a new video game”. The truth is, any younger voters Obama attracts are more than offset by losses among older voters, blue collar whites and other demographic groups that Obama does poorly with. Polling data also suggest that younger voters are almost as likely to vote for Clinton as Obama in a race with McCain. So there may not be much drop off among younger voters, and Clinton does better among other groups. You’ve used a simple-minded analysis when the overall voter dynamic is more favorable to Clinton than Obama. That’s why Clinton is now ahead of Obama nationally when each are compared with McCain. The real danger for Clinton, if she ends up as the nominee, is what happens to the black vote. While they’re unlikely to vote for McCain, they could stay at home. That’s why Obama should be VP if Clinton is ultimately nominated.

Finally, you haven’t responded to my assertion that, looking at the Electoral College and the battleground states, Clinton is much better positioned to win in November. Come on, provide some rebuttal?

Oh and more new polling makes the case again:
Pennsylvania: McCain vs. Clinton Quinnipiac McCain 37, Clinton 51, Und. 6 Clinton +14.0
Pennsylvania: McCain vs. Obama Quinnipiac McCain 38, Obama 47, Und. 9 Obama +9.0
Ohio: McCain vs. Clinton Quinnipiac McCain 38, Clinton 48, Und. 7 Clinton +10.0
Ohio: McCain vs. Obama Quinnipiac McCain 43, Obama 42, Und. 8 McCain +1.0
Florida: McCain vs. Clinton Quinnipiac McCain 41, Clinton 49, Und. 6 Clinton +8.0
Florida: McCain vs. Obama Quinnipiac McCain 44, Obama 43, Und. 8 McCain +1.0

Yo! Earth to exvirginiadude! It’s over. She can’t win the nomination. Whine away, but it’s over.

As for polls at this juncture, keep in mind Dukakis was up 17 points on Bush 41 much later in the game than this. And that was before we became the A.D.D./been-there-done-that/that’s-so-last-week society we are today.

Re: 101. exvirginiadude

Is it possible for you to make an argument without insulting someone? Or is that just something endemic to the Clinton campaign? Notice, I didn’t say “supporters.” I find most of her supporters civil. You do work for the campaign, right? In any case, you will notice I simply state my hackneyed conventional wisdom without the personal attacks.

Now, to respond to the polls. Obama had the lead in those polls a few weeks ago. I didn’t notice Clinton supporters conceding defeat then any more than I will now. I believe that Obama is experiencing a temporary downward “bump” that he will recover from as this progresses — the same way he closed the gap in Pennsylvania — a state Clinton was supposed to win by 20 — to 9.5. Same with her polling better in battleground states. I continue to hear the same opinions from independents and R’s that I heard before all the manufactured “controversy” over Wright. And that is that Obama is more palatable to them than McCain for many reasons, but mainly because of the age issue. And they will never vote for her. All of those will be put in play by him in November. And his organization will be first-rate, better than Clinton’s has been. I just don’t think she can overcome that.

I know. That makes me an idiot. But there you go.

Re: 102. PJunkie

“She can’t win the nomination.”

You got confirmation on that?

Re: 102. PJunkie

Re: 103. Don’t Mess w/ Pink

Granted, Obama is likely to be the nominee. It’s just a tragedy if it results in McCain in the Whitehouse next year. And if Obama can’t change the trajectory of his campaign soon, Superdelegates will begin reconsidering. If Clinton wins IN and loses closely in NC, and Obama’s national standing continues its sharp decline, we should all be very concerned.

And I’m in no way connected to the Clinton campaign. I started out as a Bill Richardson supporter and Clinton won me over by convincing me she was best suited to actually resolve the major issues we face. We’ve done nothing to solve our national problems for 7 years, and, as McCain’s fake health care plan revealed the other day, we can’t afford to wait another 4 years to fix things.

Other than to say “nyah, nyah we’re gonna win anyway” neither of you Obamatrons has addressed the central issue–that Clinton is much better positioned to win in November because of her greater strength in the key battleground states. Good polling picks up cross over Rs and independents. Recent polling indicates that Obama has begun losing a lot of independent voters, while Clinton is gaining among them.

If I offend you, tough. I think making the right decision for our country is a lot more important than bruised feelings. If Obama is the nominee I will absolutely vote for him, hell I’ll even given money. Obama supporters should honestly look at the electability issue based on the best available information, if you do you’ll be scared.

Re: 105. exvirginiadude

Damnit, Man. Calling them Obamatrons is NOT HELPFUL. You make a lot of really excellent points way more lucidly than I could ever hope to myself, but I really wish you’d filter out the prickishness. I don’t (think I)know PJunkie, but DMw/P is one of the best people you could ever hope to know. So cool it, would ya?

Re: 105. exvirginiadude

General. Election. Polls. Mean. NOTHING. In. April.
Get it?
Six weeks ago, SurveyUSA did a state-by-state poll showing Obama with more electoral votes than HRC.
Blah. Blah. Blah.
Talk to me in October.

Re: 104. Pink Lady

I love you to pieces, Kiddo. And I agree with you that HRC has never looked better and that she is hitting her stride at long last, but yeah, it’s still really over. Her SuperDel margin just went south of 20 today (19.4 in the NMI) and Joe Andrew was a huge defection.

Obama’s overall margin the day after PA: +131.5
Margin today: +136.3

By the end of the primaries, her SuperDel margin will have long disappeared, making Obama’s overall margin equal to or greater than his PledgedDel margin. So add 19.4, or so, minimum, to the above.

She will lose NC and probably win IN somewhat narrowly which will, overall, hurt her money game. (If Obama pulls off the impossible, wins in IN and NC, her money is gone, baby gone.) She wins KY, WV, PR. He wins OR, MT and SD. Guam’s a wash. Being generous to her, she nets +8 pledged delegates between now and 6/3 and Obama’s pledged delegate margin ends up being +145 at an absolute minimum.

No reasonable, fair calculation of the popular vote will give her a majority in that statistic.

Supers start running to the winner.

“But after all the foolish things you’ve put us through
I could always make a start on something new
And I have always been a man who’s open to…
Persuasion.”

So have a go.

Re: 107. PJunkie

quoting from my second fave “love” song of all time = nice

Re: 108. lush

Okay, I’ll bite. What’s numero uno?

Re: 105. exvirginiadude

My feelings are not terribly bruised. I think I’ll make it to tomorrow anyway. Because, after all, tomorrow is another day. (Insert gratuitous Gone With the Wind reference here.) Just pointing out there is a difference between civil and uncivil discourse. And now’s the time to learn it, my friend.

As for the response to the central issue — it’s there if you care to acknowlege it. But I’ll spell it out if you want. You are c-o-r-r-e-c-t about “r-e-c-e-n-t” polling. My point was, and is, to give it a week or two and I think we’ll be having a much different c-o-n-v-e-r-s-a-t-i-o-n. Or have you not noticed how little, in the end, this has d-a-m-a-g-e-d him? (And the constant media play on the Wright turn is pretty bad — not slamming the media, Credentials — it is a story).

/Teflon.

Signed, Scarlet.

Re: 106. lush

Lush, after reading PL’s earlier posting, I’ve decided my verbal aggression toward Obama supporters is actually an estrogen-fueled rage. I do appreciate the humor on this site and your contributions towards that. I recognize PL from her days working at HAC but otherwise don’t know a soul on the site. So, out of respect to you I pledge not to refer to Obama supporters as Obamatrons, Obamabots, Obamaniacs, the Obamaborg, the Obamanation, Obamatrix, or Obamamamas. I promise.

RE: 107 P Junkie

OK, I concede. Your brilliant logic and compilation of facts supporting your position have won the debate. By the way, it’s May now. And of course April/May polls aren’t determinative of November results, but they don’t mean nothing. They are simply the best information available. Your attempt to refute them with even older polling data is a brilliant tactic. No wonder Democrats can’t win elections. Your response reminds me of Americans overseas who, after they have trouble communicating in English with someone who doesn’t understand English, try to speak louder and slower in English.
I’m sure you’re a dreamboat, and quoting the Richard Thompson lyrics is cute, but listen to his “Shoot Out the Lights” album if you want the real thing. Similarly, try to actually think about Democrats’ prospects in November instead of just being a P Hack.

Re: 109. PJunkie

Woody Guthrie’s “Remember the Mountain Bed”

Re: 111. exvirginiadude

Actually, Obamamama is fine with me.

Re: 111. exwestvirginiadude

Sounds like somebody needs a hug.

Re: 112. lush

Wow. Thanks.

Re: 106. lush

THANK you.